SO, WHAT'S THE SKINNY?
A conversation with groundbreaking cartoonist Carol Lay and WC's own David Kopperman
My first exposure to the work of veteran alternative cartoonist Carol Lay was in the early 90’s, while I was looking through the then meager comics selection at my college bookstore. There I found Twisted Sisters (Vol. 2), an anthology (edited by Diane Noomin) dedicated to giving wider exposure to the growing talent pool of female cartoonists. The book was chock full of amazing, eye-opening work, but Lay’s detached irony and take on traditional sci-fi genre ideas definitely made her stand apart from everything else in the already varied line-up.
It was an effective introduction to her work. Both stories – Clio’s Problem and God for a Day displayed Lay’s innate gift for grappling with the big, unanswered questions and bringing them down to eye level. Clio and God took one such big theme – specifically, the nature of God, here grafted onto a 'what if?' Bruce Almighty-ish kind of scenario. But what was really remarkable to me was how she played out the concept in two very different ways. Where Clio had a classic Twilight Zone bent to it (an influence Lay mentions in her bio), with a dead serious approach matched by moody, naturalistic drawing and anxious linework, God took a satirical approach, with deadpan humor and simplified, exaggerated illustrations and unfussy rendering.
In just eighteen pages, Lay effectively explored what is possibly the greatest philosophical question in all of human history, and did so in a vastly entertaining way. This magic trick, I realized, was not in spite of the opposed approaches, but because of them. By pitching one straight and one curve ball, she’d actually deepened the meaning in both stories. The difference in both the writing and drawing styles was remarkable – moreso for remaining identifiably the work a single artist. Lay single-handedly introduced to me the idea that an artist can and should vary tone for effect. She also served as a very major bridge for me into the possibilities of alternative comics, simply by engaging genre as art – a good decade in advance of the highly successful Flight anthologies.
(excerpt from "God for a Day)
Of course, this is not to say that Lay is a ‘genre’ cartoonist. She has over the years in her newsweekly Story Minute and WayLay strips created her own genre, and the flow between satire, allegory, autobiography, social commentary and what-have-you serves as a constant reminder that some of the best cartoonists around have never had their work sold in even the finest comic store. Like Jules Feiffer, Alison Bechdel, Matt Groening, Lynda Barry, Tony Millionare and many others, Lay has pushed the boundaries of her craft in the pages of urban newsweeklies, not comic books. When the book is finally written on the vast impact this undersung genre has had on the history of comics, Lay should expect a chapter of her own.
Most recently, Lay has turned her gifts to the diet/self-help genre, with The Big Skinny: How I Changed My Fattitude, a book that uses her ability to change moods to great effect, talking in tones both humorous and sad about her own lifelong struggles with weight and how she overcame them. She’s dealt with the issue before, most notably in her 1996 graphic novel Joy Ride, where the development of brain-swapping technology allows the lazy and obese to have their bodies remotely toned by the disciplined likes of Madonna. Having read The Big Skinny and then re-read Joy Ride together, it's impressive how well they compliment each other - like the resonances between Clio and God. Seeing Lay’s personal themes presented in both memoir and fiction is the exact kind of rare insight I like as a reader.
The Big Skinny goes well beyond most diet books, offering a mix of memoir and tips on calorie counting and recipes that flows incredibly well. Lay also distinguishes her approach from many other diet authors by refusing to sugar-coat her plan, simply and clearly presenting a no-shortcuts, reasonable diet and exercise regimen as being the way to permanent weight loss and improved health and longevity. It’s also charming and lovely to look at, with Lay making great use of the full-color printing. The Big Skinny aims high at its target and hits it, and simultaneously becomes a powerful example of why comics should no longer be relegated to their traditional bookstore ‘Comics’ or ‘Humor’ ghettoes.
I can’t do Lay’s biographical details any better than she presents in The Big Skinny or at her own waylay.com or carollay.com sites. All the background that you might need to know for the following interview is that Lay is a child of the 50’s, a lifelong Californian with a decades-long dedication to the medium of her choice, who took a childhood suffused with classic television and a UCLA arts education and put them together in a way that has sustained her career for three-plus decades, in animation, storyboarding and, of course, comics.
Lay continues her weekly strip every Friday at salon.com.
NOTE: All images used in interview © copyright Carol Lay, except 'Star Wars #6' (© Lucasfilm LTD) and 'Eating Raoul' (© Kim Deitch).
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Early Career
As I researched this interview, I found myself wishing that someone would put together an IMDB for cartoonists - I was somewhat surprised to see that your site bio includes work for both Marvel and DC. Can you tell me what kind of experiences you had working for 'the big two?'
All I did for Marvel was letter, and it was a great place to start. Lettering helped me lose the fear of putting ink to a beautifully drawn comics page. When I wanted to learn to ink I traced John Buscema drawings onto a clean page and practiced using a brush. I learned how to place word balloons and captions and gained a steadier hand.
For DC I did some inking and a little drawing. I never aspired to work on superhero books, though, so I don’t remember much about that stuff.
I lettered on Star Wars #6. I drew and inked a few pages for a Wonder Woman special and also lettered on Conan, Tarzan, Kull, Dorkus, Blotto, and Mongo.
How did you learn the art of comics storytelling?
I’ve always had a gift for logic. Combined with a love of story, I quickly picked up comics storytelling techniques when my friend Bill Glass gave that crash course in comics. He introduced me to ECs, Kirby, Barks, various serial strip collections, and so on. I don’t know how I happened to miss ALL the good comic books when I was sampling stuff as a kid, but they delivered the goods when I read them as an adult.
It took a few tries before I was able to write a decent comics story, mostly because I had immature taste. But the more I read of Kurtzman and other excellent storywriters, the better became my own ideas.
Do you regard drawing comics as being similar to doing storyboards?
There are definite similarities, but storyboarding is translating someone else’s script (usually) into a visual blueprint for a filmmaker or animator. (Or for pitching ideas visually to commercial clients.) It can be highly technical, so it interests me as a problem to solve, but it doesn’t entertain me as much as writing and drawing my own stories.
In his recent Comics Journal interview, Kim Deitch gives you credit for teaching him the basics of storytelling/layout during your collaboration on the comic adaptation of 'Eating Raoul.' Can you give a little detail of what goes in to forging a collaboration between two such distinct artists?
Eating Raoul is a black comedy directed by Paul Bartel in 1982. It starred Bartel and Mary Woronov as a mad couple who kill a lot of people with frying pans. Bartel hired Kim to translate the film into an underground comic and Kim enlisted me to help.
I had been doing a lot of inking on Duck comics for Western Publishing so I was accustomed to a certain style of working. They gave me pencil drawings on tracing paper and a blank page of 2-ply kid finish vellum. I taped them together and inked by placing both on a light table.
I showed that method to Kim and we adapted it to map out Eating Raoul, he drawing the Paul character, while I concentrated on the Mary character. We hired a few others along the way (tight deadline) including the late Shawn Kerri. I may have learned more from Kim than vice versa. I really enjoyed doing that job with him, my apartment’s living room was a makeshift bullpen for a while there.
Twisted Sisters, Story Minutes, etc.
Looking back at Twisted Sisters Vol. II, any reflections on what it means to be included in an all-female anthology?
On one hand I resist being grouped with all women – it sometimes feels like being ghettoized. But these were all really great cartoonists so I was glad to be part of it.
Do you think such a book would work today?
Yes. Good storytelling is timeless.
Do you think of yourself as a 'female' cartoonist? Or a 'California' cartoonist, for that matter?
I’m a feminist and a cartoonist. I like to present a female perspective, but also take care to be even-handed. I would never call myself a “female cartoonist” because it sounds like I’m saying I have some sort of handicap.
“California cartoonist” is merely a handy alliterative description for book jackets.
How would you classify yourself?
A working cartoonist and writer.
Clio's Problem is done very straight, to a degree that it looks and reads notably different from your current work. God for a Day, on the other hand, has all of the hallmarks of your current weekly strip. What sparked the decision to make the God style your primary style for the weekly strips?
Take a look at Kurtzman’s work. His drawing and inking styles in the war stories have a jaunty, loose quality but serve the serious tones of the stories. His humor stuff is way bouncier and you need to laugh just looking at the way he drew things. Same with Wally Wood – he could do hyper-realistic or slapstick and his style loosened up for the humor.
Even within the Story Minute and WayLay strips my style varies per story. I may have learned that from looking at those EC guys.
Have you ever thought about an extended return to the more realistic style of Clio?
I have a big story I’ve written that would be well served by that drawing style, but I don’t have the time/funds to do it myself. Someday I’ll pull that out of the drawer and see what happens.
I find the sci-fi concepts in your work to be the real deal - strong speculative ideas that could easily have come from Dick, or Le Guin, or possibly Douglas Adams, given that you and he share a mistrust of the motivation behind creating 'life-improving' technology. What do you find appealing in the sci-fi approach?
It’s interesting that you named those three writers in the order you did – I read almost all of PKD’s books, a few of LeGuin’s, and some of Adams.
To answer your question, I guess I enjoy speculative fiction. I’m not so big on fantasy and horror – the former is too magical and the latter relies too much on instilling fear. I used to read a lot of SF, but that’s before I realized how poorly written a lot of them were. Maybe that has changed by now – I moved on from reading SF around 1985.
I read that you'd shopped around a very straight science-fiction graphic novel in the late 80's. What was that?
I never wrote a GN script, but I DID write a screenplay about 9 years ago that got good reactions but no sale. Charlie Kochman (then at DC) read it and thought it good enough that he allowed me to write the Wonder Woman novel for Pocket Books. I’d rather not discuss the subject of the screenplay, though, in case I get to do something with it in the future.
Do you fume or feel pride of authorship when you see one of your ideas turn up in a film (like 'Forget About It, Inc.'/'Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind')?
(I smile.) That film caught my attention, all right. Did my strip spark an idea for a really great film that goes far beyond my simple idea or was it just a case of two people coming up with the same idea?
I did a strip titled “Evolution” that turned up a few months later on The Daily Show, altered just enough to dodge a charge of plagiarism. I’m pretty sure that one was a swipe and I was a little pissed but mostly pleased at the same time.
Beyond Twilight Zone and similar shows of your childhood, do you have any other influences in the genre?
When I was a kid I was fascinated by Science Fiction Theater and Alfred Hitchcock Presents. I also loved The Dick Van Dyke Show and Red Skelton. But I watched a lot of TV and read a lot of books. Good story, good writing, laughs and thrills all went in the noggin.
The Big Skinny: How I Changed My Fattitude
You convey it with a pretty light touch, but it seems as if there's a lot of trauma tied up with some of the true-life events portrayed in The Big Skinny. How difficult was it to relate some of that autobiographical info?
It was cathartic. It helped me to put the pieces together in the chapter, “Ghosts in the Graveyard.” When I was planning the chapter, discussing it with my editor, I told her the incident of eating the dead ants that I thought were chocolate sprinkles. I had never told anyone that story and thought I never would, but when I blurted it out to Jill I knew I could put it on paper. I’m not the same person I was in the past so I have a certain detachment now that saves me from being embarrassed. Also, if telling me secret shame helps someone else relate and see they are not alone, I’m being of service.
That said, when I visited my parents’ graves soon after I roughed up that chapter I had an almost real-seeming argument with my long-gone mom. She REALLY didn’t want me to put that chapter in the book. I cried and said I was sorry (all in my head), but I stood up to her and told her it was my story. Like I said, it was cathartic.
Was it a vastly different feeling than talking about the weight issues through fiction, ala Joy Ride?
Yes. Real events are more personal to me. I find that the rewards for putting them on paper are greater.
In all seriousness, what's harder - comedy, or drama?
Good question, but I don’t know. Both require a good idea and the right presentation that will produce the desired effect. I love both and am happy when I can deliver a good story of either kind.
In both your strips from the period (2004) and in the current book, you reference your divorce. It seems like the strips done at the time were almost therapy - first the lovely odes to your neighborhood when you were afraid you'd lose your home, then the completely off-the-wall (improvised?) zombie brain eater serial, which reads like you were exorcising a lot of demons in its making.
You talk briefly in 'Big Skinny' about keeping yourself occupied with your work, and 'Big Skinny' itself definitely makes it seem like you've not only gotten through the emotional and financial minefield, but have actually taken from it and used it to produce your most ambitious work to date. Can you go into a little more detail about how comics work as a therapeutic release for you?
I’ve used comics as a weapon when I’m angry (President Bush, certain annoying neighbors) or as a release when I’m grieving. I got a lot of hate mail when I did that zombie serial, but I still don’t see why. Maybe people were uncomfortable with my peculiar expression of pain. Or maybe it was poorly written, but it’s hard for me to look at it objectively, mostly because I don’t want to look at them at all. I don’t like looking back to hard times – that doesn’t help me.
I bought The Big Skinny for my wife for her birthday (which sounds like a horrible thing to do, buying my wife a diet and exercise book!), and she found it helpful and inspiring right away - it's a good mix of practical advice and enthusiastic support group. A number of your recent strips seem to focus less on your concerns with the commercial success of the book, but rather your hope that it can be an effective tool of change for people who need it. Am I reading your take correctly? Obviously, it can be both, but would you prefer a big seller that went unused or a small but grateful and healthier audience?
I want it to sell like hotcakes. I put a lot of work into it and the more it sells the more people read it and hopefully the more people can learn a few things about nutrition and healthier eating habits. I don’t preach, but I want to tell everyone what worked for me. I like sharing my experience so others might benefit from it. I also like earning a living from my work so I can do more work.
Can you reflect on the long-term effectiveness of the book?
I’ve received some great e-mails from people who’ve read THE BIG SKINNY and two in particular have brought tears to my eyes. One young man told me his story and I couldn’t believe how lucky I was to have been able to connect with a stranger in a way that will improve his life. Making someone laugh or cry with a strip is story is terrific, but those e-mails let me know I did a very good thing with this book.
Much of the book seems aimed at a female readership - is that intended?
Not really – my method can work for anyone, but it does have a feminine dressing. It’s kind of cute and chatty. The image of me on the cover vamping in a Marilyn Monroe dress set the tone and I never thought about trying to appeal to men. I don’t think about the audience much when I work. Maybe 2/3 of the e-mails I’ve received so far have been from women.
Do you have any recommendations for weight issues that come from different geography - i.e.; the cold, long and dark winters of the northeast, where I write this from, definitely encourage both compensatory eating and less motivation to exercise.
I used to do that with LA weather (“It’s too hot. I want ice cream.”) And that right there is Fattitude at work. But now I find that exercise is easy to get anywhere. When I lived in New York I loved walking in the snow – six miles at a time sometimes. Some people get a workout by shoveling snow or chopping wood. And exercising portion restraint is helpful when ancient programming is urging us to pile on more fat for winter.
I found the book at a small suburban bookstore while I was searching through the nutrition and diet section, at which point it sold itself. But I stopped by NYC's famous Strand bookstore, and there it was shelved in the graphic novel section where I fear it would only be found by people who are already fans of your comics work. I imagine that the market you have in mind for this book is much broader, and may, in fact, be mostly made up of people who don't normally read comics.
The book has received a lot of great press, better than most according to my editor. I think that the hybrid nature of the book is confusing some booksellers, though. I would stick it in the Health and Diet section, but I’ve heard it has been spotted in Biographies or Memoirs. Since it’s also in graphic novel format, I’m sure underpaid bookstore staff are doing their best to find a good fit.
The Big Skinny is your longest foray into color. How did that affect your drawing?
I had to work very quickly in the inking phase so many pages look unfinished. I would fill in blacks in Photoshop. And I left out hatching or texturing I might normally add for black and white strips because I knew color would do the job. But I kept my basic inking style the same.
Your palette here is very muted - not pastel, but almost what I think of as a ‘SoCal’ color scheme. What was your approach to color design, and why did you stay away from brighter colors?
I am naturally very good with color and I don’t think about my choices much. I remember responding positively to European color comics albums in the 80s – I identified with more muted and sophisticated color schemes. In my style, bright colors are for special effects or certain moods. I always search for harmony between colors on a page.
Skinny’s narration and dialogue are still largely in your dry, ironic Way Lay voice. What were your thoughts about how to approach the writing?
I approached each chapter as a separate story even though there is a flow in the arrangement. The most serious chapter is, in my opinion, the best: “Ghosts in the Graveyard.” The goofiest is either “A Day in the Diet” or “The Numbers Game.” When I was telling a true story, I treated it respectfully, but in presenting information that some find hard to swallow (calorie counting scares the pants off many people) I found a light touch was the way to go.
My approach was similar to what I talked about with drawing my strip in that the story determines style.
The book has an extended appendix (at least that’s how I think of it) of calorie info, recipes, etc., that's lettered in the same font as the rest of the book, but is definitely no longer comics. Did you initially conceive of it that way, or did you try to do it as a comic and found the information didn't feel ‘right’ as any kind of graphic presentation?
In my proposal I spent a whole page on one recipe, an easy one at that. It looked great, but I wanted more information in the number of pages I’d allotted for recipes so I presented the recipes in a more traditional manner, but still nicely and sometimes whimsically illustrated. I hand-lettered the whole thing except for the titles in the Recipes section.
If you had your druthers: hand lettering or font?
That’s a hard choice. I like the liveliness of hand-lettering, but OMG, what a lot of work. For comics pages I will always hand-letter, but if I do work that is more text-heavy like that Recipes section, I think I’ll see about getting a good font made of my style. I’ve tried once or twice and I haven’t been satisfied with the results, but I’m probably not doing something right. I’m open to suggestions!
Is George Clooney really the sexiest man alive?
I used Clooney because most women swoon for his dark good looks and I hear he’s a great guy. But I’d actually prefer Hugh Laurie or Craig Ferguson. Both married and out of my league, you betcha.
Wrap-Up
Where do you place yourself in the continuum of comics?
I don’t know.
What do you see as the future of the newsweekly market for your work?
I’ve lost a lot of papers and income, as everyone has. There are fewer outlets, more competition, and less money for comics. I would hate to let it go, but there may come a time for that. Whatever happens, I’ll be working on something that interests me.
Are there any authors - comics or otherwise - whose work you'd like to praise, here?
There are too many people whose work I admire and if I don’t name them all I’d feel like I’m slighting them. I will say, though, that my old friend Kim Deitch is doing spectacular work with one of the best imaginations around. Alias the Cat knocked my socks off.
What's next? Allow me to proselytize for a long-form, semi-serious science-fiction allegory. But, really, what is next? Do you foresee yourself going more in a comics self-help direction? More memoir? More collaborations? Another Wonder Woman novel?
My editor at Random House has asked for another pitch – I’m very lucky to have her support and for the opportunity to work again with such a great team. It won’t be about dieting or food (if they buy my pitch), but that’s all can say about it at this time.
Lastly, Walrus Comix always asks their interview subjects if they have any advice for novice cartoonists - technical, business or otherwise. As an interview tradition, I definitely prefer it to James Lipton's ten questions from Pivot... so, any advice?
I am not one to give advice. But it’s safe to say that if any particular passion smacks one upside the head, it’s best to do that thing. When I finally discovered cartooning I was hooked – it was like finding a soul mate. From then it was a matter of learning the trade, the tools, and never missing a deadline.
On behalf of Walrus, thank you very much for your time, and, as a fan, thank you for sharing your talent with the world.
It was my pleasure.
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David Kopperman: Cartoonist Extraordinaire, Songwriter, Musician, Walrus Comix Journalist and Roving Fireman